The Scottish Independence Debate and England
I’ve just finished listening to a particularly unenlightening discussion of the UK’s constitutional future on BBC Radio 4 and, once again, I’m left despairing at the shallowness of the analysis. For a start, this is not just a debate about Scotland and England. There are two other nations in the United Kingdom which the BBC seems to conveniently forget. Beyond this, once the discussion turns to the old clichés around the hundreds of years of history the people of these islands share, it seems that the fact that several million people living in these isles happen to live in a state outside the United Kingdom called Ireland is forgotten.
However, the biggest failure of almost all the discussion I’ve heard so far is the lack of understanding that the current constitutional settlement with the UK is unworkable and that, in many ways, it is England, the only nation in the UK without a Parliament or Assembly, that will have to change the most in resolving this.
So the fact that Henry McLeish recently spoke out and put the case very strongly from a Labour perspective that the union is broken was really important. His advice to those campaigning against independence was that they shouldn’t simply seek to defend the status quo: “Instead of saving the Union, the key objective must be to change it because, in my view, the Union is not fit for purpose.” Simon Hughes then made a similar call for an English Parliament but was quickly slapped down by Nick Clegg.
So, particularly for the benefit of readers in England or elsewhere who may be unfamiliar with the details, why does the current model of devolved parliaments and assemblies in Northern Ireland, Scotland and Wales not work? Back in 1977 Tam Dalyell, former Labour MP for West Lothian and former Rector of Edinburgh University asked his famous question: “For how long will English constituencies and English Honourable Members tolerate … at least 119 Honourable Members from Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland exercising an important, and probably often decisive, effect on English politics while they themselves have no say in the same matters in Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland?”.
The example he gave was that, as an MP for West Lothian he would be able to vote on matters affecting the English town of Blackburn, Lancashire, which would not be allowed to vote on things affecting Blackburn, West Lothian, in his own constituency under devolution. The practical consequences of this were seen in the last UK Labour Government where, despite being Health Minister, John Reid had no say in the health services provided to his constituents. This was less of a problem when the corresponding Scottish Health Minister was a Labour Party colleague like Malcolm Chisholm MSP, but becomes much more problematic when different parties are in charge.
Equally the financial arrangements, workable in the good times, are now a huge source of friction. The key is the Barnett formula, used to allocate money to Wales, Northern Ireland or Scotland when new funding is announced in England (or England and Wales as appropriate). So when a Westminster Health Minister announces £350m new spending on children with disabilities in England, approximately £35m will be given to Scottish ministers (‘the Barnett consequential’).
Not only is the formula inherently opaque, it is also part of a wider pattern of financial decision-making where Westminster raises the cash, decides how to spend it in England and then thinks about other nations. This kind of ‘England plus’ model can also be seen in Scotland’s current tax powers, which are based on variations of the income tax rate set by Westminster. The other side of the lack of clarity is the English grievance about subsidies to whingeing Celts, and the moral hazard of spending without having to worry where the cash comes from.
All of these issues are in turn reflections of the underlying problem – Westminster’s dual role as the UK Parliament and English Assembly. It makes sense for Westminster to devise a new law or spending programme for England, and then think about other nations, because there is nowhere else to discuss England-only measures. This will, in practice, often be a poor fit for the other nations. While it is true that England is 85 percent of the UK by population, pointing this out to the other three nations will also cause irritation.
So what could be done to fix these interrelated problems of asymmetry, whether in representation or finance?
I would suggest that there are four options – full union, full devolution, full federalism and full independence (and I will leave it to Ali Thompson to make the case for full communism).
‘Full union’ would go beyond what you might call the partial unions of 1535/42, 1707 and 1922 and create a truly United Kingdom by doing away with anything that institutionalises separate national identities in England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland. Everyone and everything would become British. No more separate sports teams, separate flags, separate established churches or separate legal or education systems. Edinburgh, Cardiff and Belfast would stop being capitals. St Patrick’s Day celebrations would be outlawed, as would Burns night, English country dancing and the Eisteddfod.
Of course none of this could ever happen, the public outrage would be too great – but it would solve the West Lothian question! It isn’t completely without historical precedent – in many ways this is how General Franco tried to deal with Catalan, Basque and other national movements in Spain after he took power. However, the point of mentioning this possible arrangement is that unless you choose this option, you will end up having to work with, at the very least, parliaments or assemblies in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland.
Given that, what arrangement might make the parliaments/assemblies work better?
My second option of ‘full devolution’ solves the problem of asymmetrical devolution by creating regional assemblies in England, perhaps with similar powers to the Greater London Assembly. This way everyone gets a tier of government under Westminster, dealing at least partially with the West Lothian question. However, this was tried under Blair, and there simply wasn’t the popular support. Crucially, although England does regional identities, they don’t create a neat list of similar sized bodies that can be given an assembly. While Yorkshire (and Humberside) is about the right size and has enough of an identity to possibly make it work, as Tony Blair found out, somewhere like the North East actually contains a mixture of Geordies, Wearsiders, Teesiders and Northumbrians. Cornwall has an identity, but is generally subsumed into a rather amorphous South West England. So, while this model has a great deal of apparent logic, it simply lacks the popular resonance to be sustainable in England.
The next option is currently trading as devo-max in Scotland, but I think in reality it would only be workable if it was adopted across the whole UK – creating ‘full federalism’. Devo-max is normally described as the Scottish Parliament taking responsibility for everything except foreign affairs, defence, national borders and the currency. But these issues would have to be decided somewhere – and could Scottish MPs really continue to attend Westminster on the current basis when so little of what was being discussed was relevant to their constituencies? Virtually every question would be a West Lothian question! However, without Scottish representation, how could a question, for example, about going to war be decided for the whole UK by Westminster?
I would argue devo-max would only work with a federal parliament for the federal issues (like defence) and four separate national parliaments. This would deal with most of the questions around symmetry, and it seems to me that there would be much more acceptance in England, though for many people on the left the idea of ‘England’ is an anathema. However, if you still want a United Kingdom of any sort this may be the only option that both has any internal logic and is likely to gain popular acceptance.
And then we come to independence. Apparently simple – after all, since 1990, 35 countries have become independent. However, the practicalities of disentangling the UK would be massive (but not insurmountable). How, for example, would the different nations cope with pension liabilities? Would payment of the majority of your National Insurance in Scotland entitle you to claim a pension in England, if that was where you happened to be working when you retired? Could Wales and England have separate asylum polices? What would the economy of an independent Northern Ireland look like? Regardless of any coherence brought by being (presumably) all part of the EU, something like the Nordic Council (perhaps based on the British-Irish Parliamentary Assembly would be required.
But as I said at the start, the national conversations in Scotland and Wales have been going on for a long time. The twists and turns of the national question in Ireland are well understood by the people of that island. But it is in England that the hardest thinking now has to take place: what do people in England want their constitutional future to be – and how is this to be negotiated? One thing is clear – England is going to have some kind of parliament (or regional assemblies) over the next few years.
The progressive left in England needs to engage with this reality now, to think through how any new bodies can ensure progressive voices are heard. But for many on the left the very idea of England seems inherently reactionary. The fear is that English independence, or even an English Parliament in a federal state, will lead to political domination by the right. But by not participating in and helping shape the debate about a post-Union future they make that future more likely. Rather than the progressive left in England throwing its collective hands up in horror at the thought of losing the votes of Scottish Labour MPs, they should be thinking about the ways in which this constitutional debate creates the opportunity to press for greater democracy and civic partipation. As Alex Salmond pointed out it might just be the propect of future elections to an English Parliament that convinces the Labour Party of the merits of proportional representation…
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Also .. last word on the subject.
The queen is like many born in England !
That is one of mixed Heritage .. If the Scots hate the English so strongly !
They must therefore hate our Queen Equally as she too is of mixed Heritage .. but born in England !!
Therefore making her queen of England !!
If the Scots want a Monarch so badly as head of state .. get one of your own .. and put a Stewart on a Scottish throne.
It would not be that our Queen of England makes a lot of money for the Scottish People and is known and loved through out the world.
And therefore brings millions of tourist into Britain.
Meaning the Scots would lose a lot of Money.
The Scottish People will not have our English
Queen once Independent or our English pound.
Or our Embassies to which they contribute only 10% … As for the Military .. Scotland can keep there Scottish forces, i suppose half of them would be made unemployed.
As for Britain they can make there armies up by employing more Gurkha’s. Best fighting regiment in the world and Loyal to the last to England. ( just a thought?)
I am English, but have always believed in the union due to mixed heritage.
If Scotland want Independence let them go. I do believe that England will be stronger for it.
Remember before the union England was a Independent country as was doing very well. It was the Scots that were poor. That is why Paterson asked the Scottish people for money to buy ships and went to Darien Panama and on both his travels he failed badly. Due to being attacked by the Spanish Fleet. England were held responsible as we did not assist the Scottish.
But after this the Scottish nobles went to Westminster and asked England to pay off all its debt .. Thus the beginning of the Royal Bank of Scotland .. as this was used by Westminster to transfer the money from England to the Scottish people.
In the Event that Scotland does go Independent and after x amount of years fail. They will not be getting any handouts or assistance from England again.
And maybe the Kilt which use to be a blanket before .. becoming there national dress.
Will revert back to what is was to keep the Scottish people warm.
Scotland has to remember the oil belongs to the Shetland and Orkney Islands .. and these two Islands were forced into a union with Scotland in the 14th and 15th century.
But both these Islands consider there selves to be more Norwegian then Scottish.
Will Alex Salmon give these people a referendum to see if they want to stay part of Scotland. Or will he refuse .. so he can steal there oil.
And even if he does refuse .. just remember .. the Shetland and Orkney Islands may fight for this right. After Scotland goes Independent .. then where will that leave Scotland.
Or is Democracy with Scotland only a one way street.
All i know is you will never get any help from England in the future.
And lets see how proud your people are when they cannot put food on the table for there future generations of children.
As England could if it wanted seal borders. Import anything it gets from Scotland from another country and compete better to win contracts from other countries.
Hi Mark,
Yes, i agree, and i am only expressing my personal opinion here. It just saddens me to see ever more exclusive nationalist tendencies been pressed, i am all for diversity and identity, but i also want to see a cohesive society, and if Cornwall breaks away, we’ll have yet another country in these Isles, when really i feel we should all be trying to work together to make the world or at least this part of the world a better place.
Hi David,
As you probably know International human rights law is pretty clear on this – “All peoples have the right of self-determination. By virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development.”
As you say Cornwall and Shetland both have a claim to separate historical and legal status, and would both have a claim therefore to be ‘peoples’ under that statute. But the only people who have a right to answer the Cornish question, or the Shetland question are people who actually live in Cornwall or Shetland. It doesn’t really matter how people in the rest of England or the rest of Scotland feel about it…
Has no one learned lessons from Yugoslavia?
Haha, i’m not suggesting sending gunboats down to Falmouth Harbour.
Personally, i believe diversity is a good thing, however, this also has to be balanced against co-operation and co-existence. I expect (and want Wales and NI) to go the sameway as Scotland, and become independent nations, only then can England finally start to assert itself, and forge a modern identity, we like you have been off the European scene for centuries, and the prospect of a modern forward looking England is as exciting for the English as a modern forward looking Scotland is for the Scottish. What i don’t want is exactly what Yugoslavia became. Whilst the prospect of England dissintegrating into some sort of Somalia may thrill some Scots’, i don’t think it would do Scotland any favours to have an unstable lower half of this island. The closest thing to Cornish question in Scotland would be the Shetlands, how would you feel if they decided to go it alone from the rest of Scotland? Afterall, they haven’t always been part of Scotland, and like Cornwall, they have a successionist movement.
In don’t want Cornish devolution, i think we have seen enough of the flaking away of bits of the UK now, and anymore of the encouraging of diversification within the UK will do more harm then good.[sic]
On the contrary. Should Scotland opt for independence, the other non-English parts of the erstwhile UK will themselves look forward to a positive future. Do not expect the people of Cornwall to meekly accept being part of (an independent) England, they never have.
Has no one learned lessons from Yugoslavia?
Just a few thoughts of mine;
In the event that Scotland does leave the UK, i don’t see a perpetual Tory Government, initially, the Tories will be in power i suspect, and there will be many ‘Young Turks’ in the Tory party that i suspect this will appeal to, however, at local level, Labour has often done surprisingly well in areas of the country that you wouldn’t expect it to do so, and as time went on, i would expect the party to slowly recover, and eventually become a viable alternative again, this could even happen more quickly if Labour and a rump of the Lib Dems made some progressive alliance at some point, as votes for progressive parties tend to outweigh votes for the Conservative Party in English elections anyway.
Whatever happens with the Scottish referendum, the UK needs a huge constitutional shake up, as it is a mess at the moment, and i am all for some sort of federation along Canadian/US lines, with the 4 states of the UK been more equal.
In don’t want Cornish devolution, i think we have seen enough of the flaking away of bits of the UK now, and anymore of the encouraging of diversification within the UK will do more harm then good.
Any solution that makes a country more like Canada must be a good one. Plus it gives the SNP another 50 years of life.
No insult was ment to Cornwall – I was merely pointing out the reality that it is generally subsumed into a rather amorphous South West England in most plans for English regions, rather than saying that this was desirable or appropriate. The point I was making is that while many areas of England have distinct identities, and, as has been pointed out, in the case of Cornwall distinct legal status, these different identities cannot be simply parcelled up into similarly sized regions to suit the needs of bureaucrats. Even Glibert’s otherwise sensible suggestion of ‘super regions’ along the lines of old Anglo-Saxon kingdoms seemed to suggest placing Cornwall in Wessex (which isn’t the position of the Wessex Constitutional Convention).
If what is, in my opinion, probably the most likely outcome comes to pass of a federal UK, then I think that Cornwall would have a good claim to be the 5th member of that federation if that is what the people of Cornwall wanted.
With apologies to Cornwall, which I know very well from its bilingual road signs to maintain a proud national identity, I thought at the time that the real mistake Labour made with its attempt at a North East Assembly was to make the regions too small and therefore too dreary sounding as well as too obviously similar to existing local government. I always thought the old Anglo-Saxon kingdoms offered a pretty good starting point: The North (Northumbria), The Midlands (Mercia), The South West (Wessex), The South East and London. I think that encompasses large enough areas with distinct enough senses of themselves (maybe not the South East, which perhaps coincidentally, is the only one where you’d have to knock together the old kingdoms of Kent, East Anglia and Essex). But if you’d got a vote through in the others, then the last one would presumably follow suit.
Cornwall has a very distinct identity and is certainly not “generally subsumed into a rather amorphous SW England”. Politicians, and agents might try to convince you otherwise (as they appear to have done), but where, for example, the amorphous SW are bilingual road and street signs going up by the day? Cornwall isn’t even ruled by the Queen, but by the Duke, a unique situation in Britain. There’s a lot more evidence to present, but there isn’t room here. I’m just disppointed that people make public pronouncements about Cornwall without doing the homework first. Caroline Quentin does NOT speak for Cornwall!
“Cornwall has an identity, but is generally subsumed into a rather amorphous South West England”
So Cornwall, its distinct national identity (41% of Cornish kids describing themselves as Cornish rather than English or British in the PLASC schools survey), a petition of 50,000 signatures calling for an assembly, unique constitutional position and Celtic language, all this is consigned to the ‘hopeless box’ by your rather vacuous statement above?
If I were on the ‘left’ of the political spectrum (‘left’ or ‘right’ can be a bit subjective, not to mention fluid), I would consider the prospect of an English parliament a great opportunity, a chance for Labour to engage positively with the English people, rather than taking an Anglophobic view all the time. Remember, England has a long history of radical politicians and reformers (see Jackie Ashley’s article in the Guardian, 23/1/2012).
An English parliament would, presumably, have the same voting system as Holyrood, which would mean Labour having plenty of chances to gain the biggest number of seats, if post-WWII voting patterns for general elections are anything to go by.
If anybody at Labour’s top table is reading this, grab the bull by the horns and include a policy for an English parliament in your party’s manifesto. You have nothing to lose and everything to gain. You have nothing to fear but your misplaced fear of the English people.
You will (should) be astounded to know that in a letter to me, Mark Harper stated that “There is no link between the Barnett Formula and the West Lothian question”.
http://toque.co.uk/there-no-link-between-barnett-formula-and-west-lothian-question
The level of debate is, as you say, poor.
English Votes on English Laws is, at best, a stop gap solution. At worst it will marginalise non-English MPs and reduce the Britishness of Westminster, making the UK State even more anglo-centric – not to mention all the practical difficulties with EVoEL and the fact that doesn’t answer the English Question.
There has to be an English dimension in all this.